12 Days of Christmas 1: Hasn’t science debunked the bible? It's just a book made up by people, it’s flawed and it contradicts itself…

Posted: December 27, 2007 by Daniel in apologetics, evolution
Tags: , , , , , ,

Now isn’t that a very common topic now days!
Lets open it up and see how that type of argument stands after some scrutiny.

  • Hasn’t science debunked the bible?
  • Isn’t it flawed?
  • Written my man?
  • Contradictory?

It may surprise you but YES. Science has debunked the bible many times over the years!
Only to have their “findings” changed by other people who have either more or better information or maybe less bias. Just as today we have an evolutionary world view that clashes with almost all the bible, from its account of creation to the point of existence itself.

People keep bringing up the points that always get brought up, eg: “The water turning to blood in Exodus was just an algae!
Earth being made in 6 days. You shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. Yet they did not die that same day! How can Jesus walk on the water?” On and on it can go.
So instead of getting bogged down in 10000 points of the Bible that non-believing people don’t want to understand. I would rather be offensive as opposed to defensive by letting what the Bible says very clearly speak for itself! The lovely gems as I call them, that the attackers have to explain away! So lets look at some bible Gems and let them shine this Christmas.
Ask yourself “If the bible is man made, how can the writers know something that no man could know by normal physical non-modern scientific means?”

Lets go to the oldest book in the bible Job. With a little Proverbs. Floating and rotating spherical earth… Job 26:7 He… hangs the earth upon nothing. Job 38:14 It [earth] is turned like clay under a seal… Pro 8:27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there; when He set a circle upon the face of the deep; How can a man, regardless how smart Job could have been, 3500+ years ago, know that the earth was a sphere and spin while hanging in nothing? We only worked that out 200 years ago, but even then, we only REALLY knew it once we went up in to space and looked back at the earth. Only two words are needed: divine revelation

Eve. Gen 3:20 The man Adam named his wife Eve because she would become the mother of all who live. The bible is very clear about all humans having 1 original birth mother: Eve. Today science has clearly discovered that there is mitochondrial DNA that only comes from the mother, passed on to the next generation, you me and the woman next door all have the same mitochondrial DNA that could only come from the previous woman, going all the way back to the First woman. EVE…
Pleiades and Orion.

Job 38:31 Can you bind the bands of the Pleiades, or loosen the cords of Orion? Can a man 3500+ years ago be expected just by looking up at the stars to know that Pleiades and Orion are constellations of stars that are different from all other stars around them, but also have intricate knowledge about them without even a telescope? We have only just discovered via our high technology that in ever so minuscule amounts all stars in the constellations that we see in the sky are spreading apart bit by bit. Yet out of all known constellations Pleiades is not moving apart at all [bound] and Orion is moving apart very fast [loosed], so much more than all other constellations that it will soon fall apart and no longer be a constellation in the future. Yet it cannot be detected by the human eye or normal observations. I have two words once again “divine revelation”! Anyway, why would 40+ men over a period of 1500 years on three different continents, in three different languages often never knowing each other, “make up” something that is so out of this world, over and over and end up getting it right every time?

There is not single fact in the bible that is incorrect, not one part can be proved to be wrong. Yes people have thought that parts were wrong, yet once “real” science caught up and used unbiased observations and thinking, the bible stands strong time and again. Think about it, if there were any “real” discrepancies in the bible, we would never hear the end of the detractors. The only reason why people today do not want to except the bible as TRUTH is because they don’t want it to be TRUTH. They are willingly blind to it. I think that there is a good verse covering that! If they can just push the bible to a small corner and reduce it to a “fable” then they can continue to justify their sinful lifestyles and will never bend the knee to God. So blessings this Christmas and all the best with reaching your family’s over this festive season!
From Scott.

And remember ”Human knowledge is ultimately man boasting about himself.” That is a hollow boast isn’t it!

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Comments
  1. hokku says:

    The Bible depicts a flat earth under a solid sky (“firmament”). That was a common view in the ancient world, and that was the biblical view, which knew neither a globular earth nor its revolution on its axis, nor its revolution about the sun. To speak of the “circle of the earth” has nothing to do with a globular earth. A circle is not a sphere, and there is abundant evidence that the biblical writers believed God to be dwelling not far above the earth — only so high as would make humans appear like grasshoppers — in his residence above the solid sky, where were located also the vast waters “above the firmament.”

    The cosmos described in the Bible has nothing whatsoever to do with the realityof the universe, and the only reason some Christians believe in those realities is because they accept the findings of science, not the mistaken assertions of biblical writers regarding the universe and its workings.

  2. pyropenguin says:

    please read this response with the warm and loving tone that I am feeling as I type this!

    Thankyou for the reply!
    however your reply is just quoting other peoples higher criticism, whose works are only building a straw man so they can knock it down.

    You cant have read the bible for your self?
    if you have read the bible, and still think that it is “flat earth” then you have read it with a “world view” given to you by someone else who has told you that:
    The bible is man made.
    The writers were just reflecting the then current “flat earth” ideas.
    The bible writers really meant “THIS” “Not that”

    I do wonder if you have read the bible for your self, becasue if you had you would know that there is no “flat earth” thinking.
    It is certainly depicting layering… which fits with what we see today:
    earth. (ground/mountains)
    sky. (air and clouds)
    space(universe)

    so lets take some time to look at Job 37:18 which is the hardest verse to read.

    KJV Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out(7554) the sky,(7834) which is strong,(2389) and as a molten(3332) looking glass?(7209)

    first of all, please take note that you are referring to a 500 year old English translation of the bible…
    this is the same translation that has unicorns in it!!!
    So why is there no one running around using the old English translations to justify mythical pink UNICORNS?

    Num 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of a unicorn.#7214

    Because we know that the English translators were referring to Bulls/rhinoceros/wild goat etc… (big strong animal)

    H7214
    רם רים ראים ראם
    re’êm re’êym rêym rêm
    reh-ame’, reh-ame’, rame, rame
    From H7213; a wild bull (from its conspicuousness): – unicorn.

    just because today the word “UNICORN” means a mythical one horned horse, that has magical powers.
    It does not change what the original meaning of the bible is.

    remember that the “firmament” is a old word.
    all the English bible has been translated in to english, and so with that there have been some problems in the change over!
    If you have a look at commonterys over the last 400 years on that verse, there have been diffrent thinkings on its meaning. partly because of the science of their day and also the world view attached to the reader.

    here are just 5 different translations.

    With Him, have you spread out the skies, strong as a metal mirror?

    Have you beat out the expanse with Him, hard like a cast mirror?

    Canst thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong as a molten mirror?

    God can spread out the clouds to get relief from the heat, but can you?

    Thou perhaps hast made the heavens with him, which are most strong, as if they were of molten brass.

    I like the top one, from the New King James version, in the context of the whole book of Job it is very clear. Please go and read the whole chapter or book and see for your self.

    but lets go back to
    KJV Job 37:18 Hast thou with him spread out(7554) the sky,(7834) which is strong,(2389) and as a molten(3332) looking glass?(7209)

    and lets look at the original words and their meanings.
    Firmament
    רקיע
    râqîya‛
    From H7554; properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: – firmament.

    H3332
    יצק
    yâtsaq
    yaw-tsak’
    A primitive root; properly to pour out (transitively or intransitively); by implication to melt or cast as metal; ****by extension to place firmly****, to stiffen or grow hard: – cast, cleave fast, be (as) firm, grow, be hard, lay out, molten, overflow, pour (out), run out, set down, ****stedfast****.

    H7209
    ראי
    re’îy
    reh-ee’
    From H7200; a mirror (as seen): – looking glass.

    Quote:
    “there is abundant evidence that the biblical writers believed God to be dwelling not far above the earth — only so high as would make humans appear like grasshoppers”

    Can you support this claim?
    if you have “abundant evidence” you should have lots to tell me!

    kind regards from scott

  3. hokku says:

    You wrote:
    râqîya‛
    From H7554; properly an expanse, that is, the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky: – firmament.

    It looks to me like you are just going to some concordance instead of a Hebrew lexicon, but in any case, “expanse” is inadequate and misleading as a translation of raqia, which indicates something hammered or stretched out — it is a term used in verbal form in the OT to describe metal hammered out as a worker hammers out a copper or brass bowl. And of course it is described as SOLID in genesis, which is why it can separate the waters above and below it.

    Look at the tale of the tower of Babel and you will see just how low the ancients believed the firmament to be. There is is said that the people of Babel were planning to build a tower with its top in the heavens. And of course God, who lives up there, sees something going on and comes down to see what they are up to.

    Look at Isaiah 40:22, describing God and his dwelling:
    “It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitans thereof are like grasshoppers; that stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.”

    In short, God is not far above the earth, only a height at which they would look like grasshoppers; the earth is circular, and the firmament is stretched out over it like a tent. That is the primitive biblical cosmology — a relatively flat, circular earth with a solid firmament above it, in which sun, moon and stars are set, and above the solid firmament is a vast reservoir of waters, amid which is built the dwelling place of God — a mythological and quite unrealistic view of the cosmos which we know to be completely untrue.

    As for the biblical quote describing the sky as hard as a mirror cast of molten metal, that is what it literally says. Those quotes you give of other “translations” are not really translations, but re-interpretations. Ask any Hebrew scholar.

  4. pyropenguin says:

    thankyou for the quick reply,

    I didn’t look in to a lexicon per say, but just a old KJV with the strong numbers, so that I could see the original wording and what it meant in that verse.

    Can I ask by what authority you say ( “expanse” is inadequate and misleading as a translation of raqia) ? are you a Hebrew scholar? I wish I was!

    I have enjoyed this time re-reading many diffrent translations of Job 37:18 I have gone over MANY different translations, from loose, to solid, word for word, to near equivalent. I have even gone to the older translations like 1600+ to see how they dealt with the wording and the newer ones 2002.
    And I must say that you do have a case, in some translations, because they do use the
    “hard like a mirror” “hard like a steal metal mirror”

    KJV Job 37:18 Hast thou with#5973 him spread out#7554 the sky,#7834 which is strong,#2389 and as a molten#3332 looking glass?#7209

    There are only 6 words in this verse.
    With 3 needing some indepth looking in to.
    you want to keep the words “STRONG+MOLTEN+GLASS”
    To make you case that the bible says that the sky is solid/hard/metal-glass AKA “Flat earth”

    so lets look at the word “strong”#2389 it is used 57 times, and translated in to.
    strong 26, times
    mighty 20, times
    sore 3, times
    stronger 2, times
    harder 1, times
    hottest 1, times
    impudent 1, times
    loud 1, times
    stiffhearted 1times

    then

    and as a “molten” #3332 used 53 times and translated in to.

    pour 21, times
    cast 11, times
    …out 7, times
    molten 6, times
    firm 2, times
    set down 1, times
    fast 1, times
    groweth 1, times
    hard 1, times
    overflown 1, times
    stedfast 1times

    then

    and as a looking glass?#7209, and translated in to.
    looking glass 1 times

    now that I have looked in to it, I am very happy to see the word “strong” or “mighty” used in the context of strength/power/greatness.

    the Molten looking glass, is just what it says!
    remember that there is a “AND” and “,” in the sentence. something that you conveniently missed out in your last reply…

    8Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, AND as a molten looking glass?

    The Wesley commontery from 1800’s says:
    Job 37:18 – With him – Wast thou his assistant in spreading out the sky like a canopy over the earth? Strong – Which though it be very thin and transparent, yet is also firm and compact and steadfast. Looking glass – Made of brass and steel, as the manner then was. Smooth and polished, without the least flaw. In this, as in a glass, we may behold the glory of God and the wisdom of his handy – work.

    a good site with a snap shot of this verse in its many forms, as well as the Hebrew, is:
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Job&chapter=37&verse=18&version=KJV#18

    I think I see where you are coming from now!

    you have an agenda and you are still using straw man arguments!
    As can be seen by your quote “sky as hard as a mirror cast of molten metal, that is what it literally says.”
    well people can read for them selfs what there own bible say, and they will see a “AND” and “,” in the verse.

    Same as you cannot use Isaiah 40:22 that way…
    You cannot use any verse in the bible out of context, it is called proof texting.

    you love to talk about what the “ancients believed” however there are such things in the bible such as poetry, psalms, songs, prophetic writings, wisdom writings, apocalyptic writings, historical narrative, eye witness accounts, letters, also descriptions of events, sarcasm etc…
    Each part in each sentence must be taken for what it is, and must be taken in context.

    yes Isaiah 40:22 says “It is HE who sits above the circle of the earth, and it’s inhabitants are LIKE grasshoppers, Who spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.”

    out of context you do have a case!
    but in context you dont…

    why?
    well look at the context of the whole passage, look at what God is saying through Isaiah.
    The prophet is sarcastically indicating the futility of trying to portray the immensity if God-His power, wisdom and resources- in the form of a man made idol.
    Isaiah is exalting God as creator, in whom the Jews were to put there trust.
    The word circle of the earth is applicable to the spherical form of the earth, above which He sits. This implies that God upholds and maintains HIS creation on a continuing basis. AS God looks down, men seem like insects to the ONE who has stretched and spread out the heavens.

    If we were going to read the bible the same way you are, and stay consistent we must also read in:
    Isaiah 40:6 “…All flesh is grass”
    that is what it says, that must be what it means!

    Isaiah 40:11 “All nations before Him are as nothing”
    that is what it says, that must be what it means!

    what about the verse where God describes Himself as a Mother hen protecting its baby chicks.
    Do we conclude that the “ancients believed” God is a chicken?

    now obviously I am being sarcastic with the Isaiah 40:6 – 40:11 and the chicken verse. however it happens all the time in Christianity by aberrant people and the cults.

    May I ask you a question.
    What do you believe?
    about life, where we came from and where we are going?

    This is not a trick question, I do want to know.

    but as for the tower of babel,
    just read a commontery or any of the 14 version that I just read.

    – Gen 11:4 –
    They said, “Come, let’s build us a city, and a tower, whose top reaches to the sky, and let’s make us a name; lest we be scattered abroad on the surface of the whole earth.”

    – Gen 11:4 – Let’s build a great city with a tower that reaches to the skies-a monument to our greatness! This will bring us together and keep us from scattering all over the world.”

    – Gen 11:4 – And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

    They were given a direct command by God to multiply and spread over the earth, yet they didnt want to spread,
    So the Trinity came down, and stopped them.

    it is not like they got up to close to the solid dome of heaven and it contravened Gods earthly/heavenly building and zoning codes, and was not happy with the noise we were making under his feet!

    I believe that there was a Real flood, a REAL Noah’s ark, a REAL tower in Babel, and that God did come down and changed our languages to spread us out, like He commanded us to spread out.
    I take the bible as literal, I read it plainly/simply and when I come across a verse like Job 37:18 and in the English translation it might be hard! it might be a difficult even strange thing.
    But as Christians we are supposed to study the Bible, work through it.
    It is not like there is a passage saying that the moon is made of cheese! and we fly up in the space craft and see the moon made of rock.
    Then we would have a problem! But there is no error in the original Bible.
    Even the translations are only having difficulty’s because of the translated languages having missing or incomplete words.
    EG. like English and the word “Love”
    we only have 1 word for love, but the Hebrew has 5 I think, so it is hard to translate them in all their finer details over to English as a word for word translation.
    This is why we have Lexicons and dictionary’s and commentarys.

    ok that will have to do! it is getting late.

    but I would like to know what you think about What do you believe?
    about life, where we came from and where we are going?

    kind regards from scott

  5. hokku says:

    You wrote:
    “The word circle of the earth is applicable to the spherical form of the earth, above which He sits. This implies that God upholds and maintains HIS creation on a continuing basis. AS God looks down, men seem like insects to the ONE who has stretched and spread out the heavens.”

    How much does it take to recognize that a circle is not a sphere? That the Bible nowhere describes the earth as a sphere? As for the inadequacy of “expanse,” I suggest you consult the most up-to-date and authoritative Hebrew Lexicon, Koehler-Baumgartner, which says the firmament is SOLID, which of course is exactly what the “hard as a mirror of cast metal” excerpt says, and of course is WHY the firmament could separate the waters above from the waters below, something an “atmosphere” (which was unknown to the Hebrews) could not do.

    Further, you are ignoring the fact that the Bible of the early Christians, the Greek Septuagint, translates firmament by “stereoma,” which again shows solidity; and the Hebrew Vulgate does the same with “firmamentum,” something that is firm and solid, thus the KJV “firmament.” The notion that the raqia is an expanse of nothing but air is pushed by Creationists, and is a modern notion not supported by the text or the early translations, or the rest of the Bible, for that matter.

    I don’t know how long you have believed myths, but eventually childhood must have an end, and if you just look into the facts, you will see that I am simply telling you the truth. Even the Jewish Study Bible The reason “expanse” is misleading is that it not only removes the clear meaning of solidity, but it also does not identify the connection with the hammering and spreading of metal that is found not only in Hebrew but also in cognate languages.

    You make the absolutely unsupportable statement that “there is no error in the original Bible.” Well, THERE IS NO ORIGINAL BIBLE. All we have is a collection of documents which demonstrate clearly from the manuscript evidence that they have been revised and edited, and further, there is no biblically-authorized canon; in other words, the Bible NEVER self-identifies all its contents, because this was done by the Church, and what is in the canon has differed not only over time but differs even today, depending on whether one is Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopian Christian, or Protestant, and it differed even in ancient times, as we see from the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    What I believe or think about human origins has absolutely nothing to do with all this. It is just simply fact, and if you take the time to do the necessary research in scholarly resources you will find that is so, and that you have been misled.

  6. pyropenguin says:

    wow you do reply fast! great.

    I do want to know what you do believe…
    you could be coming at me like this as a Hindu, atheist, etc…
    But you have kindly put me in my place, told me that all “truth” in my life is a lie…
    That I have been deceived, but you have left me hanging on a vital point:
    “What is right then??? for me and my life???”

    You must have the answer then. please tell……………….

    Without YOUR TRUTH, I have only one option.
    That is to take on the most prevalent world view that is around me today.
    atheistic Evolutionary humanism.

    There was a big bang that just happened with out a cause 4.6 billion years.
    Out of it came the universe with stars and planets.
    then this planet cooled down just because it wanted to.
    Then the Laws of physics that came in to effect and just got created for no reason.
    Then out of some pond scum that congealed on the side of a rocky pool, some basic life self created it self after some 2 billion years.
    Then just because it worked out the way it did, that life got more and more complicated, more and more diverse.
    Then a line of chimps/apes Evolved a new branch called Homosapian, which after a few hundred thousand years Humans came about and started living in caves.
    Then as we Evolved bit by bit, we just happened to create technology that evolved with us.
    From caves to houses
    From sticks and clubs to swords and guns
    From pen and paper to computers and rocket taking us to the moon.
    WE are all there is.
    I am, is all that’s important.
    I was born after a long drawn out process of pointlessness.
    I have no more porpous in life than a monkey or a mouse.
    I have no REASON to live…
    I just AM.
    There is no longer a need to follow the Law of God, or even the law of the land.
    My marriage to my wife, was only binding when there was a God, it is boring to me now, and my baby child is just such a hassle when she crying all night.
    That baby and my wife are both a drain on my finances, so I better send them away!
    talking about finances I will now have more money to spend on my own pleasure because there is no need to give money to my church, just so that they can give it to poor “wast of space people” who should be helping them selfs!
    WOW
    Darwin was so right! It is survival of the fittest.
    eat or be eaten, I now say! Lets kill off the competition…
    Why not? There is no God, no reason, no truth.

    Lets Gather up all the people around us who think like we do, and we can set a new strand of evolution.
    We can kill off all the Jews, Asians, blacks, old, slow, dumb, even the GOD believers! and start breading a super race of blond blue eyed people who look just like me!!!
    (note to self… it is so great how the “NOTHINGNESS” allowed me to be blond and blue eyed! or I would have been in trouble)
    So whoever wants to join me can meet me on the corner of Death street and selfishness lane. If you don’t have a Gun one will be provided once you join my army!

    ok I will stop now. (but I was having fun!)

    remember that at age 19 I became a NEW creation, God in HIS grace, came in to my life, reveled Himself to me, convicted me of my SIN.
    I repented of my SIN and I chose to lay down my life to serve Him as my LORD and Saviour.
    Jesus IS the Christ, who came down from heaven to live a perfect life, die on the cross to pay for the penalties of my sins, so that I could be brought back in to a right relationship with God.

    I am not some life long Christian, there is no such thing!

    But I was given the Gospel when I was about 16,
    I was living with my girl friend,
    I was a swearing blasphemous adulterating thieving lier.
    I was evil through and through.
    BUT
    I didnt want to bend the knee to God!
    NO WAY…
    You mean stop having sex with my girl friend? ARE YOU CRAZY!!!

    I had my Sin, I loved my SIN, just like a pig in mud.
    I was willing to believe the LIE that was given to me by my government schooling/TV and family that evolution and UFO’s was the way… than to believe the Gospel.
    I was self righteous.

    So what is the one Sin you don’t want to let go of?
    What is stopping you from bending the knee to God?

    You must know that being a born again Christian is not some intellectual exercise that I inherited…

    ok are there cults? yep!
    is there a different view from Catholic and protestants? yep!
    is there hypocrite’s in the church? yep!
    Are some people wrong? yep!

    The question that you have to answer is “who is right?”

  7. hokku says:

    You wrote:
    “I do want to know what you do believe…
    you could be coming at me like this as a Hindu, atheist, etc…
    But you have kindly put me in my place, told me that all “truth” in my life is a lie…
    That I have been deceived, but you have left me hanging on a vital point:
    “What is right then??? for me and my life???”

    I am simply coming at you with the facts and the truth about the fallible, human nature of the Bible. Other dogmatic belief systems are irrelevant to this. I just present you with reality, and what you choose to do with it is up to you. The fallibility of the Bible remains whether one is Christian, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic, etc. etc. etc. It is a matter of simple scholarship.

  8. pyropenguin says:

    ok. you have skillfully side stepped the issue of what you believe. again!!! nicely done!

    but will you give me the pleasure of knowing 2 things?
    1: Your definition of “simple scholarship” or “Scholarship” in general.
    2: What presupposition are you holding on to.

    from scott
    ps: I still want to know!!! But I get the feeling that you don’t want to talk about it, because it will hurt your argument on this topic.
    So come on… Man UP!
    If what you just stated above “dogmatic belief systems are irrelevant to this” Then you should have no problem…

  9. hokku says:

    You wrote:
    “…but will you give me the pleasure of knowing 2 things?
    1: Your definition of “simple scholarship” or “Scholarship” in general.
    2: What presupposition are you holding on to.”

    What I mean by simple scholarship here is that it is just a matter of familiarizing one’s self with the text and it meaning without dogmatic preconceptions.

    I am not “holding onto” any dogmatic preconceptions. After a time one of course forms a point of view based on the text and the manuscript evidence, but that is not a “presupposition,” rather a result of approaching the text in terms of the text rather than dogmatic beliefs about it.

    You added “If what you just stated above “dogmatic belief systems are irrelevant to this” Then you should have no problem.”

    No there is no problem, because they are irrelevant and I have no dogmatic belief system.

    But let’s look for a moment at why you ask what I “believe.” I told you the truth when I said it is irrelevant, because the Bible remains what it is no matter what belief system one holds or does not hold — beliefs do not change the facts. But conservative Christians are often fearful of looking reality in the face because they fear losing their view of the world. So they immediately want to know if there is a “back-up” belief system. I don’t offer that in these discussions, because it is pointless, when one is looking for truth, to simply attempt to replace one fallible belief system with another. What is needed now is just looking honestly and clearly at the facts and evidence. That will reveal the human and fallible nature of the Bible. What one then does after that is up to the individual.

  10. pyropenguin says:

    Still no answer, what a dodge, you must have had a lot of practice at this! 10+ points!

    I would ask you “what is reality…?” but I get the distinct impression that you will say “that is irrelevant to this topic” and “it should be up to me, once I go and study the cold hard facts”

    But I rest my case on this point…
    That if a person has a pre-supposition that there is “NO GOD” and that the “BIG BANG” was at the start of creation… then that person is always biased when it comes to the objective study of the Bible.
    Even the objective study of anything! Even truth its self.
    for example:
    One such as them can look at a rock in a valley and instantly they show their pre-supposition that the rock can’t be 6000 years old, it MUST be 3.5 billion or older.
    The dinosaur was never around at the same time as the mammals…
    So when (in my own state) one such person digs up the remains of a tyrannosaurus intermingled with a possum, it is conveniently forgotten because it clashes with their world view.
    I contend that there is NO ONE who is unbiased, NO ONE who is a clean slate.
    if I were to guess that you started your first study of the bible at age 20.
    it is very fair of me to ask:
    Did you grow up poor or rich?
    Did you have a public education or privet?
    Did you get fed evolution? or creationism in school?
    Did you grow up with the moral laws of the ten commandments or just let to do what you wanted to as a child?
    Did you ever get discipline as a child or never brought under control?
    Did you grow up in religion or atheistic?
    Did you watch TV and read books with anti Christian/religion ideas?

    why did I ask those basic things?

    because Unbiased study of the Bible is not possible.
    The bible is a challenging book, it has a world view, that either clashes with your existing one or not.
    The thought of a pre existing God who created the universe and all contained in it, either is the same as your existing view or it isnt.
    The idea that there is a LAW that we have broken and God will hold us accountable and destined everyone to an eternity in hell, either clashed with a first time reader of the Bible or not!

    I will boldly state that you would be much like me… Fallible, human, sinful, full of pride and never wanting to think that I am not perfect.

    You see the tables can just as easily be turned on you, Non Christians are often fearful of looking reality in the face of God, being accountable to Him for their Sin’s…
    Knowing that there is a price to pay either now or later.

    you see, you can call me stupid, naive, biased, even wrong! when I say that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, inspired Word of God.

    the topic on the infallibility and inerrant nature of the Bible, is something that I am biased on!
    God has revealed Himself to me and millions of others, through the words contained in the Living Word of God.

    And remember that I am giving you credit where credit is due! You have chosen to attack the Bible… You have done the smartest thing possoble.
    If there is no Bible there is no Genesis, no creation, no Adam, no Sin committed in a REAL garden.
    If there is no Sin, we don’t need a Saviour.
    If there is no objective truth, that the Bible is Gods WORD handed down to us, then there is no point in obeying what it says!!!
    If God cant even give HIS WORD to us in a book, and keep it the way He wanted, or prevent it from being corrupted.
    Then that GOD is not GOD, just a figment of our imagination.
    This is why you so boldly, strongly, even deceptively charge after the authority of the bible…

    Every attack you inflict on the Bible is just a reflection of your own Sinfulness and need to be saved. A reflection on your own unwillingness to bend the knee to God.
    This is why God so graciously gave us all a conscience.
    You know what is in your heart, you know how you feel! I am not your judge, God is.
    All philosophy aside, You just like me, one day will die.
    our hearts will stop beating and we will be gone.
    The Bible states very plainly that “after death is the judgment”

    you can just shrug it all off, come back at me with another spin and dodge, then skillfully try to stab the Bibles authority or set another straw man and knock it over.
    But it wont change anything. 2000 years have passed since the death of Jesus.
    2000 years and the WORD is still here, the gospel is still here…
    YOU even mark time by Him, just like I do.
    YOU will one day stand before Him either as redeemed or condemned.
    But mark my loving words, I have been up late all these nights writing to you because I care for you, and how can I just ignore you and your sole, when I know what will happen to all those who Die while out side Christ.

    Your conscience is bearing witness to what I say. however you can ignore it or listen to it.

  11. hokku says:

    I have to say that your message just seems to me like an expression of someone locked into a view of things and avoiding looking at them objectively (or as objectively as possible in such circumstances).

    The way to over come this is simply to read the Bible, starting with Genesis, since you seem to have an interest in origins. We have already established the biblical phrase that speaks of the sky as hard as a mirror of cast metal. Now you need only re-read the beginning of Genesis to see that it says NOTHING about an atmosphere. Instead it depicts a solid sky that separates the waters above the firmament from those below.

    Test question to see if you are paying attention: Where are the waters above the firmament today? If you are paying attention, you can see that Genesis depicts sun, moon and stars BELOW the waters above the separating firmament.

    Historically, the firmament was understood to be solid as well. We see that, as I have already pointed out to you, from the Septuagint Greek translation, “stereoma.” We also see it from the Latin Vulgate’s “firmamentum,” and from the KJV’s “firmament.” So this notion of the solid sky as being simply an expanse of nothing, or an expanse of air, not only does not fit the Hebrew text, but it also does not fit the historical understanding. Modern Creationism is largely the product of late 19th and early 20th century attempts to counter the discoveries of science, so in reading Genesis, conservative Christians mix what cannot be denied of science with the mythology of Genesis, and come up with something that is neither biblical nor science.

    The facts and the evidence are there. One only has to be paying attention to see them.

  12. pyropenguin says:

    well you call me a conservative Christian, and I call you are atheist, it is ok!!!
    you can even go so far as fundamental mega conservative Christian…
    One who believes every word in Genesis.

    however it is not my fault, not the fault of the Bible if you either, dont have the intelligence to understand a very simple verse, or dont want to understand the verse so you can justify your NO GOD philosophy.

    But because it is Genesis, I will take the time to, at a very minimum (for the audience) go through the passage, and something that you DON’T want to do, that is to read Gen 1.6 in light of the rest of scripture.

    I am not going to give you my simple breakdown of Genesis because I will be accused of being biased with my modern knowledge of todays science…
    so here is Mr Wesley from 1710 to 1788 many years before Charles Robert Darwin…

    Gen 1:6-8 – We have here an account of the second day’s work, the creation of the firmament. In which observe, 1. The command of God; Let there be a firmament – An expansion; so the Hebrew word signifies, like a sheet spread, or a curtain drawn out. This includes all that is visible above the earth, between it and the third heavens, the air, its higher, middle, and lower region, the celestial globe, and all the orbs of light above; it reaches as high as the place where the stars are fixed, for that is called here the firmament of heaven, Gen_1:14-15, and as low as the place where the birds fly for that also is called the firmament of heaven, Gen_1:20. 2. The creation of it: and God made the firmament. 3. The design of it; to divide the waters from the waters – That is, to distinguish between the waters that are wrapt up in the clouds, and those that cover the sea; the waters in the air, and those in the earth. 4. The naming it; He called the firmament Heaven – ‘Tis the visible heaven, the pavement of the holy city. The height of the heavens should mind us of God’s supremacy, and the infinite distance that is between us and him; the brightness of the heavens, and their purity, should mind us of his majesty, and perfect holiness; the vastness of the heavens, and their encompassing the earth, and influence upon it, should mind us of his immensity and universal providence.

    I will only add 1 thing, Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
    Gen 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

    Yes there was water up above the sky we had today. The earth was a different place than today, it never rained, EVER, until the flood.
    how thick it was I don’t know, was it solid and transparent, maybe! suspended liquid maybe!
    But that is why it is no there today, because the water was made to come down, at the same time as the fountains of the deep, flooding the earth.

    Remember the flood? that thing you want to ignore.
    You know all those fossils that are laid down all over the earth in that you think happened over millions of years? but were really put there by the world wide flood as mentioned in the Bible. THAT FLOOD…

    But I do want to confront your deceptive lie regarding your quote:
    “Modern Creationism is largely the product of late 19th and early 20th century attempts to counter the discoveries of science, so in reading Genesis, conservative Christians mix what cannot be denied of science with the mythology of Genesis, and come up with something that is neither biblical nor science.”

    Modern creationism is in reaction to the ridiculous and anti Biblical world view started by before mentioned Charles Darwin, Charles Lyell, Uniformitarianism, evolution, etc.

    You accuse me of not seeing the facts and the evidence, I point out that you are blinded by your Sin and atheistic world view.

    remember I will be praying for you.

    good night and bye till next time.

    so come one just indulge me a little bit, were you taught in a catholic school?

  13. hokku says:

    You wrote (or rather quoted):
    “Let there be a firmament – An expansion; so the Hebrew word signifies, like a sheet spread, or a curtain drawn out.”

    This ignores the connection with metalworking, stamping and hammering; it is not simply an expanse of air or nothing; it is a SOLID expanse, as we see not only from the Septuagint, the Vulgate, and the KJV, but also from the best Hebrew Lexicon, Koehler & Baumgartner.

    “This includes all that is visible above the earth, between it and the third heavens, the air, its higher, middle, and lower region, the celestial globe, and all the orbs of light above; it reaches as high as the place where the stars are fixed…”

    According to Genesis, the stars, sun and moon are set IN the solid firmament, and birds flay across the face of the firmament. This depicts a solid sky with sun moon and planets visible on the underside, and birds can fly across the face of the underside of the solid firmament.

    “3. The design of it; to divide the waters from the waters – That is, to distinguish between the waters that are wrapt up in the clouds, and those that cover the sea”

    That is simply nonsense. The Bible never identifies the waters above the firmament with water in the clouds below it. That is obviously wrong and easy to disprove.

    And here is another thing you say that is easily disproved, because it is so glaringly unbiblical and is simply fantasy. You wrote:
    “Yes there was water up above the sky we had today…
    But that is why it is no there today, because the water was made to come down, at the same time as the fountains of the deep, flooding the earth.”

    How can you expect to understand the Bible if you ignore what it says. Obviously the writers of the Bible did not believe the water above the firmament disappeared in the flood, because Psalm 148:4 exhorts the waters “above the heavens” (shamayim) to praise Yahweh. Obviously that could not have been said if the writer of the Psalm believed the water above the firmament had disappeared in the flood!

    You can see that I am the one who is following what the Bible actually says. I don’t believe it, of course, because it is untrue and pre-scientific, but I read what it actually says instead of adding dogmatic fantasies that are not in the text.

  14. pyropenguin says:

    well you are simply displaying your bias, and dogmatic stubbornness on the issue.
    So I will now close this topic, because flogging a dead horse is a good description of this blog.

    regardless of how you might reply to this, I feel that it is just going to be another stab at the Bibles authority, a put down to Christianity, and another attempt to inject doubt to people who read this.

    At the end of the day, you have said it your self ” I don’t believe it [the bible] of course, because it is untrue and pre-scientific ”

    Sin is blinding you my friend, blinding you from the truth.

    So good bye, before our conversation lowers the intelligence of any readers more.

    Just remember that every part of TRUTH that the Lord has put before you in your life, all the TRUTH that you have willingly suppressed in your own unrighteousness will be laid before you at the judgment.

    You might have freewill here on earth, but it will be taken from you once you die and suddenly realize that you will exist for eternity, under the absolute control of a all powerful God who has from before time began, condemned you to eternal punishment in Hell where you will give glory to God.
    repentance and faith, are to some people on earth, dirty words, but you will forever remember them.

    reply if you must, stab like you are desiring to, inject more doubt, attack the Bible.
    But we will be here, the Bible will still read, the church will still standing long after you are gone.
    You are not the first and you will not be the last attacker.

    bye

  15. pyropenguin says:

    There are more important things to dedicate my time to than this.

    if you ever wish to have a conversation over this, or any other genuine question you might have one day, please feel free to drop a email here.
    as you can see, I love to type! and willing to talk.

    but it is just no point flogging a dead horse.

  16. hokku says:

    So you cannot defend your position and want to stop. Of course you cannot. It is not biblical, and cannot be supported from the Bible. It is the product of 19th-20th century Creationist attempts to harmonize their failed dogmas with science, and of course it does not work, because the Bible is not science.

  17. pyropenguin says:

    I am back online after a few days, wow you do want to fight!
    talk about a poke in the eye for your last comment.

    it’s ok I forgive you. really I do!
    I know what I was like before I got saved.

    Hay I have all the time in the world, and can keep talking if you want?
    But we must agree to cover some new ground or just keep going over and over the same topic?
    remembering that you are the one who wont talk… [your life, education, bias, point of view]

    I do want to pick up that last point you made “the bible is not science.”

    who is saying it is science?

    A committed Bible believing Christian believes that the Bible is correct on ALL matters of Faith and Practice and ALL other areas that it touches upon.

    if your own personal view and conviction is…
    “It is not biblical, and cannot be supported from the Bible. It is the product of 19th-20th century Creationist attempts to harmonize their failed dogmas with science”
    Ok… then that is clearly what you believe!
    You have stated it enough times to be clear, I hear you.
    we think each other is wrong.

    I think and know that the every part of the Bible is true, absolutely correct, on every scientific area that it touches upon.
    and you don’t agree.

    so now what? Do we just keep going back at each other for the next 50 years until one of us dies of old age?

    my comment “There are more important things to dedicate my time to than this.”
    is very true, and not some copout…
    I am newly married and have a 4 month old baby girl.
    I am applying for a different job and might have to move house.
    I do have better things to do!

    Having no idea who or what you are, I can assume that you are a very educated person, busy and have things to do.
    My motivation in continuing is YOUR salvation…

    so what are we topic are we going to talk about?

    [yes I know that you will just go back to attacking the Bible… because you can/want to… but I know you can’t defend your own standing before a holy God, so you will avoid anything to do with it…]

  18. hokku says:

    You wrote:
    “I think and know that the every part of the Bible is true, absolutely correct, on every scientific area that it touches upon.

    You can say you “think,” but you cannot honestly say you “know.” We can see from the first chapter of Genesis alone that the Bible is scientifically inaccurate, but one has to pay attention to what it says, not to what one reads into it.

    And yes, you no doubt have lots of things to do, but if you really want to know if the Bible is a human and fallible document or not, you might be able to find time for that now and then. It is up to you.

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